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The forthcoming demise of the Conservative minority government, May 2017-?

Discussion in 'off topic' started by TheDecameron, Oct 12, 2017.

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  1. maxflinn

    maxflinn In Moscow For Debriefing.

  2. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    Since The Guardian article mentions the New Statesman, here's something from that magazine that is worth reading:


    It paints an appalling picture of what life on Universal Credit is like for a man who clearly has serious medical issues. It has become a system that is designed to punish and humiliate the poorest and most vulnerable members of society.

    You might say it's got worse under the Tory government but be under no illusions - as my disabled partner can attest, it was a New Labour government peopled by those wonderful "moderates" that got this particular ball rolling. And it was the Lib-Dems in the coalition government that aided and abetted the Tories in their persecution of the poor and vulnerable (remember the jolly jape about the LDs conceding a more punitive benefits sanctions regime in return for a 5p charge on carrier bags?).

    This is why I'll be voting Labour whether we're in or out of the EU. Austerity must end and Labour is the only party that's committed to ending it.
  3. Still

    Still cadet

    droodzilla likes this.
  4. HarryB

    HarryB pfm Member

    Well, I went to bed. Let me guess that Gassor didn't answer the question.

    I will assume from now on that the bitter Scottish troll is a Tory.
  5. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    The problem is no major party has the honesty or integrity to attempt to explain to the electorate that Tory Brexit was a con. A highly orchestrated rip-off designed to benefit an ultra-wealthy tax-exile Tory donor elite that was sold to the electorate via highly dubious and covertly paid for data-manipulation, dodgy campaign over-spending, xenophobia, scapegoating etc. If Corbyn had even an ounce of integrity he would never stop stating this and atempting to hold a corrupt Tory government in hock to a tax-evading elite and wishing to create a low-wage zero rights economy to account. Corbyn isn’t doing this at all. He’s just nodding along like an imbecile actively helping create the biggest disaster we have faced in decades. As such stuff him and his party, they will never get my vote until they start acting as a credible opposition party. The SNP, Greens and Lib Dems are all in a different intellectual and moral league to Labour and anyone who cares about our future should vote for whichever is the most likely to keep a Brexit disaster party (either Conservative or Labour) out of overall power.
    Zepfan and NeilR like this.
  6. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    Can I just ask those expecting Labour to save them from Brexit what they think whipping for the EEA amendment would have achieved? And what those who broke the whip achieved?
  7. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Other than obviously being the right thing to do economically and maybe sending the Tory government into further disarray, maybe collapse? Those who broke the whip showed themselves to be better than the party leadership.
  8. maxflinn

    maxflinn In Moscow For Debriefing.

    If he switches now to opposing Brexit Labour could not win a GE IMO, and assuming it hadn't happened beforehand, you'd see a big Tory majority again at the next GE, and then a Tory Brexit.

    So, can Brexit be stopped?

    If not, as seems likely, then supporting the party that would deliver the least damaging Brexit and the best post-Brexit policies seems to me to be the pragmatic choice, and that's Labour.
  9. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Not actually running the party does not mean they are not strong and powerful, and, highly influential.

    Labour came close to winning the last general election, were it not for the malign influence of the Blairites we might, just might, have a Labour government now.

    And that, right there, should be more than enough reason for anyone who wants to see the Tories out of office, to hold the Blairites in contempt.
    Steve Taylor and maxflinn like this.
  10. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    I’d argue trying for a hung parliament with the anti-Brexit parties having the ability to hold Con or Lab to account and block the most destructive aspects of Brexit was by far the best plan.
  11. Mescalito

    Mescalito pfm Member

    Had the Blairites still been in control of the Labour Party we would undoubtedly have had a Labour govt. now.
    I personally hope Corbyn leads the Labour Party in perpetuity. It would guarantee that they never got a sniff of power.
    doctorf likes this.
  12. maxflinn

    maxflinn In Moscow For Debriefing.

    I was thinking if the Lib-Dems picked up a big enough vote based on their remain stance that they'd need to be courted into a coalition by one of the big two in order to form a government, that they could make holding a 2nd referendum a condition.

    But is this likely? I doubt they'd get enough support.
  13. maxflinn

    maxflinn In Moscow For Debriefing.

    Nonsense. Labour voters do not want Tory lite.
  14. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Westminster is now utterly dysfunctional with both main parties vying to deliver their own versions of a willfully self destructive policy. What’s most surprising is that a transient political lesser like David Cameron was capable of damaging the U.K. on a scale of this magnitude. What a political epitaph to leave behind.
  15. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Like the Lib Dems held the Tories to account in 2010?
  16. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    I feel, as a left winger all my life, that I'm being forced to choose whether or not to vote for a poisoned outcome.

    A pretty good but not perfect Labour government in waiting, but which seems happy to enact a disastrous policy engineered by another party whose ideals they profess to abhor. That this tory brexit, which they are going along with, has damaged the country already in all sorts of ways, from economics to social cohesion, from international reputation to cooperation on scientific research, and will MASSIVELY damage it economically, makes their support for it by Labour inexplicable, even if traditional parliamentary virtues like stupidity and self interest are factored in.

    I also find it inexplicable that a party which has achieved massive new membership amongst the youth, who for the main part are able to clearly see what the tory asset strip of the last few decades has achieved, notwithstanding this are happy to merrily saw away at the branch upon which they are sitting. I surely don't need to remind of remain support among the young.

    So come the next GE, if Labour haven't come to their senses, I'll be voting elsewhere. Ten or twenty years down the line I'll be an irascible old git, but I'll have the warm fact to hug to me in the midst of Fuctbritain that I didn't vote for any of this 5h1t, and didn't go stupid and sell out my principals.

    I still maintain that representing their membership and coming out all guns blazing against tory brexit would be a vote winner and get them into power. They'll certainly lose the youth vote on this trajectory.

    Mine too.
    jtrade and TheDecameron like this.
  17. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    I’ve no idea, but I expect their vote, along with that of the SNP and Greens to strengthen substantially next election. Whilst the Tory party created Brexit and, along with UKIP, are the only parties with a pro-Brexit vote share there are many moderates in the Tory voterbase utterly appalled by the hard-right nationalism that is hijacking the party at present. They may well shift to more central/sensible parties and they are in the seats the LDs have a chance of winning. Corbyn’s main problem is that between 65 and 75% of Labour voters (depends which polling you read) are remainers, and I am convinced this is the reason he is getting so battered in the polls at present and will never win an election. He is way, way out of step with left of centre thinking on this, the core issue the nation faces. Many of us who float around the centre will never even consider voting Labour until they abandon their support for this Tory/hard-right-wing economic and social catastrophe. He really can stick his whole party up his arse until he starts fundamentally opposing Brexit. At present Labour is of zero use to huge numbers of us.
  18. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Blairites were in control of the Labour Party in 2010, how did that turn out?
    Still likes this.
  19. wiresandmore

    wiresandmore pfm Member

    Corbyn needs a leadership contest and to lose it to change Labour's stance. He has dug his heels in and supports Brexit and will not change.

    The problem is no-one else in Labour is a really credible option for them.
  20. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    It wouldn't send the Tories into disarray or collapse any more than the vote on Tuesday did, because there are no Tory rebels. It would have been a gesture, and an ambiguous one, one that might well have cost them the next election.

    Labour are powerless to stop Brexit, it just cannot be done: Tuesday's vote confirmed that once and for all. The fact that the same voices (I don't just mean PFM ones) calling for an electorally suicidal gesture are generally the same ones accusing Labour of indulging in idealist, gestural politics and ignoring electoral reality is a clear sign that we're dealing with an anti-Corbyn movement here as much as an anti-Brexit one: Corbyn may even be the real target.
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