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The Know it all Audiophile

Discussion in 'audio' started by Ian M, Jul 4, 2019.

  1. sq225917

    sq225917 situation engineer

    You've got that arse about face. If i believe my time is better spent building a better mousetrap than obviously I'll try to dissuade anyone that I can from wasting time, and money on cables.

    If all one is equipped to do is swap cables then have at it. But that doesnt mean they should be blinded to the alternatives
     
  2. notevenclose

    notevenclose pfm Member

    And all posted without a hint of irony with regard to the original subject of this thread.
     
    SteveH and duckworp like this.
  3. duckworp

    duckworp pfm Member

    Why would you want to spend your time dissuading other people? What motivates you to care about what other people are doing with their time and their cables? If you care about people ‘wasting their time and money’ so much I assure you there are better ways to spend that time caring. Especially as the people you are apparently caring for don’t want your care. That’s the weird and illogical thing about cable-hating forum posters.
     
  4. sq225917

    sq225917 situation engineer

    When did I say I hated cables? I have no feelings towards that group of inanimate audio accessories. Seems like you're weirdly obsessed by them.

    I would dissuade people from spending large sums of money on them because its pretty much the least effective way to improve your hifi IME. But like I said, if swapping a few wires is the limit of your ability, have at it. Ill still be here building stuff for people who've outgrown that particular crutch and making my own gear.
     
    Isobarik, John_73, YNWOAN and 2 others like this.
  5. Shadders

    Shadders pfm Member

    Hi,
    I think it is the fact that cables scientifically do not make a difference. The placebo effect is what affects people people, in that they believe that they can hear a difference. The cable manufacturers know this, and can charge exorbitant prices for a bit of metal and plastic, whose material costs will be a few quid.

    There is no peer reviewed scientific paper or handbook on how to design cables for audio, to achieve "veil lifting", "inky blacks", or "improved timing" - and all the other usual dopey statements.

    Regards,
    Shadders.
     
  6. marshanp

    marshanp ellipsis addict

    I trust in science. I therefore expect that statements about noticeable effects in sound reproduction will be more than mere assertions of opinion. Ideally, such statements will be backed up by numbers.

    Nevertheless... if enough people share a (positive?) assessment of a sound, its legitimacy/correctness gains some substance, even if that assessment may not be universally accepted, or supported by statistical analysis.

    Such an accord doesn't happen very often. Most "audiophiles" therefore resort to an entirely personal intrepretation of what is or isn't a believable representation of what they expect from a recording of a musical event.

    Oh, dear me... the above doesn't come out very clearly... but it is what I think...
     
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr and Andrew C! like this.
  7. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr pfm Member

    There's quite a few sweeping and incorrect statements in there. Firstly, there are some cable installations for which there is no dispute that, scientifically, they make a difference. Secondly, if you're going to assert that it is all down to the placebo effect, please show your workings and evidence. Otherwise, it's just a claim, with no more validity than the claims of the cable manufacturers you disparage.
     
  8. booja30

    booja30 pfm Member

    Non believers think effort and money should be focused elsewhere. What's the harm in providing a contrasting opinion?

    If cable threads were full of only like minded individuals, then people new to the hobby looking for advice would draw the wrong conclusion that it was unanimously believed that upgrade cables, fuses, lifters, whatever were worthwhile.

    This is ok with you? What about other subjects? Only believers should speak up and everyone else should be quiet?
     
    joe9407 likes this.
  9. narabdela

    narabdela who?


    A far more elegant expression of what I was trying to say in post #156. :)
     
    booja30 likes this.
  10. duckworp

    duckworp pfm Member

    But a discussion on the merits of respective cables is not just an opinion: if I hear a difference I hear a difference, I do not hold an opinion that I hear a difference. So on the Ethernet thread someone says that CAT8 sounded different from than CAT 6, it is a fact that it sounded different to him. He may then have an opinion as to whether he preferred the Cat8 or CAT6, but the fact is that he heard a difference. It is then an interesting discussion as to what aspects of the sound were different. A discussion might present itself as to what other people's experiences are. Some people may say that they listened and heard no difference, and that is interesting information too. What is not interesting are relentless posts saying that the poster is definitely wrong, often posted by people who have not tried the experiment, and these posts hold no purpose as they will not convince the original listener that his hearing is wrong and others involved in the productive side of the discussion will just sigh.



    This is the only constructive argument for anti-cable postings: that they give new hifi hobbyists a counter-view. It does seem though that a lot of effort goes into this though, and I wonder just how many 'new to the hobby' people there are browsing these forums. So it maybe still a waste of time posting these things if the end user whom you are targeting does not exist on the thread, which is in all probability likely to be the case.


    It is not a question of 'believers' and 'non-believers' it is just that the anti-cable postings within interesting cable thread discussions serve no purpose (other than the one you mentioned above re new hobbyists which I think is a little hopeful on your part that your audience is in fact present) as they won't change anyone's mind about what they know they heard.



    I'm spending too much time here trying to understand people's illogical posting behaviours. Time to move on I think.
     
  11. Shadders

    Shadders pfm Member

    Hi,
    Can you provide the peer reviewed paper, or scientific report where the cable design makes a difference ?.

    The onus is on the people who claim they hear a difference to prove through DBT, that there is in fact a difference. That is, the person claiming the positive has to provide evidence.

    Regards,
    Shadders.
     
  12. Octavian

    Octavian pfm Member

    You do realize however, that your or anyone else's experiences per se are utterly meaningless and uninteresting in a public discussion, do you not?

    It is the age old cop-out so loved by subjectivist audio: "I am not making any claims, I am just reporting my observations".
     
    booja30 likes this.
  13. duckworp

    duckworp pfm Member

    "utterly meaningless and uninteresting" to you. I think it is really meaningful and interesting if you tell me that cable x changed the sound from cable y.
     
  14. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr pfm Member

    I really can't be bothered. But you can google Litz cable topology, or how varying LCR characteristics affect signal transmission at different frequencies, for example. None of this is contentious, nor is it disputed by cable sceptics, so your post feels like you're thoughtlessly regurgitating something you read, probably on here.

    And on the DBT stuff, firstly, it doesn't need to be double blind, so again you're just regurgitating the usual guff. Seems like you may not actually understand it. Secondly, in order for the blind test to have any validity, you first need to show that the blind test methodology you're using is sufficiently sensitive to detect known, small, differences. Nobody ever does that. So if you're going to insist on a test methodology, maybe give a bit of thought to how effective it is likely to be.
     
  15. Octavian

    Octavian pfm Member

    Nope. It should be meaningless to you too (and everyone else), but of course you do not realize this.

    Reporting experiences and observations is meaningful only if there is a reason to believe that these observations and experiences have a causal relationship to the differences in acoustic output of different cables. It does not matter what you think about this.
     
  16. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr pfm Member

    It's turned into a cable thread, so I'll leave you guys to it.
     
  17. Shadders

    Shadders pfm Member

    Hi,
    Maybe look at this link :
    https://www.waldonell.com/static/documents/Science Behind Speaker Wires.pdf

    Again, how does the cable parameters which are different, allow you to hear the changes ?. Where is the scientific proof that different cables make an audible difference ?

    There is none. If there were proof, then the internet would be awash with such proof and the cable debate would be null and void.

    Why not try this audio test :
    https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php?lvl=1

    If you cannot hear the change in a continuous tone at 0.5dB, or 0.1dB, then how can you hear the difference from memory, of a cable change which changes the sound volume by 0.001dB at 20kHz, and much less at the midrange audio band ?

    For the Litz cable - is there a difference between transmission line theory and cables connecting amplifiers to speakers ?

    Regards,
    Shadders.
     
  18. duckworp

    duckworp pfm Member

    And we come full circle: you've done a great job of illustrating and proving the case for the Know-it-all Audiophile that Darko describes in his video at the very top of this thread! Congratulations!
     
  19. Old Shatterhand

    Old Shatterhand Odeon Audio user

    Edited, facts could be proofed. I (believe to) hear a difference is not a fact it is just a personal impression.
     
  20. simon g

    simon g Grumpy Old Man

    Oh look, yet another thread that has become just another circuitous subjective/objective 'discussion' waste of time.
     

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