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The minimum required before isolation

Discussion in 'audio' started by Tim F, Sep 17, 2019.

  1. Chefren

    Chefren pfm Member

    Probably one of the better cheap options for decoupling is to use Sorbothane which is properly dimensioned for the weight of the speaker. See the second post here how to choose a suitable number and type of pad:
    https://www.gearslutz.com/board/stu...3-sorbothane-speaker-weight-calculations.html

    The target is to use 3 or 4 pads with the correct rated load so that the damping of vibrations is optimal, not just to get generic Sorbothane pads which may or may not suit ones particular speaker.

    Townshend might very well be better, but it's also way more expensive.
     
  2. Richard Lines

    Richard Lines pfm Member

    Good Morning All,

    Having spent a lot of money refurbishing the room the hi-fi lives in including the laying of an Amtico floor I wasn't about to start putting multiple holes al over it so I needed something out of necessity.

    I have Quadraspire QX7's under both speakers, the LP12 stand and the equipment stand.

    TBH I wasn't able to do a before and after but don't believe they are detracting.

    Regards

    Richard
     
  3. JimmyB

    JimmyB pfm Member

    So the use of spikes was about keeping the speakers firmly rooted, allowing the drivers to do their thing without the whole lot moving around them. Makes more sense than the new ideas about isolating them by floating them above the floor which really makes no sense to me at all. What energy is transmitted into the floor? Why does it matter that energy is in the floor?
     
  4. adamdea

    adamdea You are not a sound quality evaluation device

    Thoughtful parties might be concerned about lack of clarity as to whether aftermarket feet were supposed to couple or decouple- almost as though those who advocated them had no clear idea what they were doing.
     
    Bob McC and Julf like this.
  5. Folkman

    Folkman pfm Member

    I have often thought a lot so called isolation devices are in fact coupling devices but with varying degrees of selective frequency isolation.

    My own experience/research leads me to agree with the views of Max Townshend and Barry Diament [article on vibration control on his site].

    I initially tried floating my equipment on inflated wheelbarrow tubes , and had better results than anything previously used. Not pretty so I bought a couple of Townshend Seismic Platforms with great results and am currently investigating using some Podiums under my speakers. These do seem to be counter intuitive , but everyone whos bought them seem to think they work excellently.
     
    hifinutt likes this.
  6. Folkman

    Folkman pfm Member

    Because when the speaker is coupled to the floor , the energy in the floor can flow into the speaker.
     
  7. Julf

    Julf Evil brother of Mark V Shaney

    I thought this was an audio forum, not yoga... :)
     
    booja30 and JimmyB like this.
  8. Alonso1973

    Alonso1973 pfm Member

    Townsend Stella rocks!
     
  9. awkwardbydesign

    awkwardbydesign Officially Awesome

    Slowly.
     
  10. awkwardbydesign

    awkwardbydesign Officially Awesome

    Many years ago I was at a hifi show and someone I didn't much like was demoing Quadraspire. He moved a Naim CD player from a welded steel stand to a Quadraspire one, while the CD was playing. I really wanted the demo to fail, but was very surprised to hear the obvious improvement in sound. I have never used Quadraspire myself, preferring to make my own shelving systems, but wouldn't discount them if I was ever in the market for stands. Townshend work well under speakers, so much so that I now make my own version of them, but have never compared their equipment stands with others.
     
  11. JimmyB

    JimmyB pfm Member

    What energy in the floor? If you're dancing around then yes but what 'energy' could be in the floor that would affect the sound of a loudspeaker? :confused:

    If there is energy in the floor, can I get some isolating slippers and a chair to make sure it doesn't flow into me too?
     
    Julf likes this.
  12. Folkman

    Folkman pfm Member

    Seismic energy. As I said checkout Max Townshends and Barry Diaments web sites.
     
  13. JimmyB

    JimmyB pfm Member

    At least Max cites a feedback path to a turntable as a route, long known and dealt with in many cheap and practicle ways but Barry is offering nothing other than dodgy theories based on.... well to keep it polite....nothing.

    "Computers, streamers and DACs are highly susceptible to mechanical noise as they all contain vibration sensitive crystal oscillators"

    Just because it has the term oscillator in there doesn't mean it needs isolating from 'siesmic vibrations'.

    An electron microscope needs isolating but it's sure as hell not for the sake of the crystal oscillators!
     
  14. h.g.

    h.g. pfm Member

    If the music you are dancing to is coming from the another room with the door closed what is making sound in your room?

    If speakers are placed on a floor which can move significantly such as a wooden floor then a significant proportion of the energy in the cabinet will be transmitted to the floor. Once in the structure of the house it will be transmitted throughout the house vibrating all the walls a tiny amount but because the area of the walls is so large it adds up to something that is audible. To get a feel for the effect try placing an electric toothbrush on a table and listen to how much louder it gets when it touches. Unlike most audiophile tweakery this is actually real. Law of averages I guess.

    To reduce the amount of energy in the vibrating cabinet entering the floor you can do one of two things. Place something stiff and large under the speaker so that a large area of the floor has to move as one. A concrete slab would be an example. Or place something soft under the speaker so that the force from the cabinet vibration is greatly weakened (at least above the resonant frequency of the weight of the speaker sitting on the soft spring).
     
  15. JimmyB

    JimmyB pfm Member

    That's fine, all understood, and decreasing stray energy is fine. However, 'siesmic' is rubbish marketing speak.

    Also, as mentioned before, in a speaker we have a very low mass moving to make a sound referenced against a large mass which is the cabinet. If you allow the cabinet to move (on a floaty stand) then are you not interfering with the ability of the small mass to do it's job?

    Basically, you're 'solving' an issue which can be dealt with elsewhere, by as you mention, removing the transmission path or sinking the energy. However you are introducing a completely new issue in that your speakers are no longer acting as designed.
     
    Sean K likes this.
  16. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    Hmmm, structural borne vibration versus airborne propagation, just how much energy in the speaker’s enclosure and how much is transmitted into the floor ?
    Keith
     
  17. mikemusic

    mikemusic pfm Member

    I tried quite a few. From memory and in ascending order of sound quality
    MCRU cones and Russ Andrews cones about the same
    Black Ravioli original
    Stillpoints
    RDC cones then with cups and then bases - great VFM
    Black Ravioli Mk3. Latest so far as I know. £60 each, 3 or 4 needed for each box. Not cheap but well worth the improvement.
    Tried on all kit and left in

    Started on Mana racks on soundbases now on Creaktiv racks
     
    Tim F likes this.
  18. sq225917

    sq225917 situation engineer

    The speaker cabinet shouldn't move, wobbly stands and big bass drivers just end up making the cabs move and destroying hf timing as the entire treble unit moves with cabinets smearing the treble output.

    Bouncy, rattly floors are a nuisance though, pick your poison.
     
    JimmyB likes this.
  19. Rockmeister

    Rockmeister pfm Member

    If you're de-coupling, a few cheap trials are worthwhile to see what works. If the weight of the speaker allows it, 3 or 4 tennis ball halves under each speaker is worth a try (either way up), and better, half squash balls work well, but neither would work on monster 50kg floorstanders :)
    At least, for a few quid, you can see if the basic principle brings improvements, and if it does, look for a good affordable solution. The top of that tree are Townshend seismic stands which are brilliant but blimey...eye watering price for a stand.
     
    leroyd likes this.
  20. duckworp

    duckworp pfm Member

    As @Tim F says, with a suspended wooden floor you really want isolation from the floor rather than spiked connection. Putting the speakers on cheap £10 granite chopping boards (Argos) and then introducing something absorbent between the speaker and the granite chopping bard should do the trick. Isoacoustics Gaia feet or Townshend seismic bars do this very well, but it is worth experimenting with something cheaper like chunky bits of Sorbathane or equivalent.
     
    leroyd likes this.

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