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This Russian nerve gas poisoning thing..

Discussion in 'off topic' started by MVV, Sep 13, 2018.

  1. Mick P

    Mick P Retired and content

    Chaps

    The main reason for this is, as Matthew said, to issue a warning to any other overseas dissidents, double agents, etc to let them know that they are not safe and Russia will catch up with them eventually wherever they are.

    The MO is a very good deterrent, first your children will die slowly and painfully, then your wife dies after watching her children die and then finally you die cursing the day you did the dirty on Mother Russia.

    They know neither the UK nor anyone else will do anything serious about it because no one really cares enough about double agents to upset the applecart. We will all blast hot air and then forget about it.

    This has been going on since WW11.

    Mick
     
    MikeMA likes this.
  2. Yomanze

    Yomanze pfm Member

    Got to admit, the Russians know how to do ‘banter’, and get our media to fall for it hook, line and sinker.
     
  3. Vinniemac

    Vinniemac pfm Member

    doctorf likes this.
  4. FireMoon

    FireMoon pfm Member

    The deep seated problem with the Skripal case is that, we have a series of proven liars all making claims any of which could be a lie. Putin is a murderous liar however, rather good at it and far better at playing those he wishes to. May and Johnson are proven liars, it's actually hard to find anything either has told the truth about, leaving the rest of us wondering which liar is lying about what.

    Questions to ask yourself are as follows. Why was the British governments first response to the incident to slap a D notice on the MSM talking about Pablo Millar(er)? Millar is Christopher Steele's partner in their security business based in Salisbury and was the Skripal's handler when they first entered the UK before Millar left the security forces. Millar was stationed for several years, in Estonia, according to usually reliable sources in the USA, Mueller has serious "kompromat" on Drumpf that was given to him and is still being held by the Estonian security services. These sources, before anyone says anything, have been 100% correct so far with regards to Drumpf and the various already convicted criminals involved with his campaign.

    In short, quite why are the British Government so desperate to keep under wraps that Skripal might well be involved in Steele's dossier, the contents of which are still not fully known as the parts so far published apparently constitute only something like 1/3 of the total dossier?

    No-one doubts that Vlad the Mad is murderous gangster however, it is rather strange that, Putin who normally has a 100% success rate in offing those he wants dealt with cocked it so badly on this occasion and furthermore, he allowed those who supposedly cocked it up to just wander around Russia in the aftermath of their failed assassination attempt.

    Then there's the little issue of the Skripal's own movement on that fateful day. They left home at 9 am and both of them turned their mobile phones off. The so called assassins didn't even arrive in Salisbury until 11;48 the video evidence clearly shows that, so quite what were the Skriapls doing post 9 am that they decided to turn their phones off meaning they could not be tracked via them?

    It is also interesting to note that, many of the web pages detailing the one actual known death attributed to a Novichock variant have now vanished The detailed pages talking of the case of "Ivan Kiveldi" have pretty much disappeared. He died inside 30 minutes of being exposed to a Novichock having being smeared on the mouthpiece of his phone. The Novichock came from a disgruntled professor who had't been paid for months and kept the constituent parts in his garage.

    One also has to question quite why, if the UK medical services have managed to treat and "cure" 75% of the victims of Novichock poisoning why they have not published how and shared that treatment with the rest of the world as it is a hugely important medical breakthrough? Doctors worldwide must be waiting w in anticipation of this new miracle treatment and yet, so far, one white duck on your wall about how they did it, why?

    Why did Vlad the Mad not bump Skripal off when he had the chance to and no-one would have batted an eyelid.What has Skripal done since he left Russia that reactivated him as a target? The only thing that seems to make sense is that, Skriapl gave Steele and Millar details that are key to the whole Drumpf/brexit/Putin scandal, which means, there's a rake of other people who have a motive to silence him including, SCL/Cambridge Analytica who are stuffed to the gills with leading Tories and ex members of the British Security services and who, were working with a Russian energy company known to be a front for the FSB.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/20...ling-facebook-had-links-to-russian-university
     
  5. Cesare

    Cesare pfm Member

    FireMoon, you're getting pretty deep in there with little actual facts. Being outside looking in it's always easy to assume there's some amazingly capable motivated people driving all this, but sadly the reality of every organisation i've ever been involved with, no matter externally how capable they look is that most things are a lot less organised and a lot more boring.
     
  6. hc25036

    hc25036 pfm Member

    I'll try to ignore the rest of the theories on here, but can help with this one. Treatment of nerve agent poisoning is pretty standard, and while Novichok poisoning is vanishingly rare, worldwide thousands of people are exposed to less-toxic but similar agents every year. The issue is time to diagnosis of the specific agent and the Skripals were "lucky" to have been poisoned in the nearest emergency unit to Porton Down where, doubtless, there will be specific procedures in place for just such an event. I know for sure there are several agents available that neutralise nerve agents very effectively, and I recall one of the news reports saying that a 'trial' treatment had been used on the Skripals. Treatment is not straightforward as the agent can hide away in body fat and reappear to start the poisoning all over again, so the quality and continuity of medical care by well-trained staff is critical.
     
    Tim Jones likes this.
  7. FireMoon

    FireMoon pfm Member

    No the problem is, Novichock acts in a very specific way, and yes, Iv'e spoken directly to a fully qualified doctor in the subject and an ex services hazchem tech who now works for the NHS. You have 10 minutes post exposure to a Novichock, to administer the antidote and that's it. If you are poisoned by a Novichock and enter a coma state, then you are medically as good as dead, as the nerve agent has destroyed the brain's connections that govern and control the body's basic functions. The only known survivor of exposure to Novichock was a lab assistant who had the antidote immediately administered and they still died some 5 years later as a result of the complications it caused. The trope that you can wander around for hours after being exposed to a Novichock and somehow miraculously recover from its' effects once it has activated in your system is absolute and utter cobblers

    it of course total coincidence that, the latest round of BS about the whole incident happened mere days after Patten was indicted in the USA and Patten happens to be the gatekeeper for the whole Drumpf/Cambridge Analytica connection. My guess is that, thjis all leads back to the Ukraine and Russian supporting far right elements therein and the fact that Manafort was in solitary "for his own protection" whilst awaiting trial suggest that as well, as Manafort is intrinsically linked with the Ukraine and dirty money there.

    As for "facts", please, do me a favour, May and Johnson have lied from the word go and provably lied, the idea that the "Novichock" could only have come from Russia is utter bollocks and they neglected to mention the 150+ scientists and lab techs who have literally "vanished" from the face of the earth since the collapse of the USSR who know how to manufacture it.

    So please, spare me the patronising BS, you've been wrong with regards to just about everything since Drumpf's election and brexit so I see no reason why you should suddenly be right now.
     
  8. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    Like exposure to any toxin, dose dependent. HC is right, the chemistry is known. It was all over the press at the time for those of us who wanted to read it.
     
  9. hc25036

    hc25036 pfm Member

    I don't know if your doctor is bigger than my doctor, but mine has just completed a PhD on a potential treatment for nerve agent poisoning and I have read and understood his thesis - every word of it. The 10 minute thing that everyone talks about is dose- and formulation-dependent and absorbtion through the hands is relatively slow. All nerve agents act on a specific biochemical pathway, so I'm not sure what the 'specific' way you mention really is. It will have a different way of binding to the affected pathway, but the effect on the patient will be pretty much the same.

    But we shouldn't let experts or facts ruin a good argument...
     
    Still likes this.
  10. FireMoon

    FireMoon pfm Member

    My doc is an ex eastern block doc fully trained specifically in Novichock, hates Putin with a passion is a Tory and thinks the story is "complete and utter bollocks".

    Here's some facts for you... Johnson with his "very good friend" Sergey Nalobin, chucked out of the UK for being a Russian spy. [​IMG]

    Here's Johnson with someone he has "never even heard of let alone met" who was probably running the whole brexit/Drumpf campaign in the EU and has since mysteriously vanished, his wife just happens to live in guess where? Yes, it's the Ukraine, one Josef Mifsud. [​IMG]


    And here's the dead eyed psychopath who we have as PM with Stanislav Yezhov, Russian spy and intepreter for the Ukraine government.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. FireMoon

    FireMoon pfm Member

    And here's the now deleted tweets from the Emergency services in responding to the second so called "Novichock incident" in both cases the victims were being treated for Fentanyl poisoning which the described effects, mirror perfectly. And given the second two victims were both Heroin users, which do you think is more plausible?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  12. hc25036

    hc25036 pfm Member

    Given the choice between:

    A. Busy emergency response personnel mistakenly calling Fentanyl poisoning (which they have seen loads of times) rather than nerve gas poisoning (which they will never have seen) on site, and

    B. Dozens of medics/lab staff/nurses/pharmacists and heaven knows who else being told to lie about Novichok on two occasions and to keep to that lie for this length of time

    I’d say A is the more likely
     
    PhilofCas likes this.
  13. FireMoon

    FireMoon pfm Member

  14. FireMoon

    FireMoon pfm Member

    Dozens of staff my arse, blimey you really are gullible and then some aren't you? A full contamination unit found nothing and they were specifically looking for nerve agents because what supposedly happened.

    The media stooges for the security services first claimed that. The Skripals were poisoned via their car door handles. This was quickly dismissed by most who know the subject. They then changed the story to, it was on the door handle to the house, depsite the fact that, a copper in their normal uniform is clearly pictured standing mere yards from the door handle looking well relaxed days before they decided you need a full hazchem suit to go anywhere near the place. . This itself was summarily dismissed at utter nonsense and then suddenly, it was no longer a spray rather, a gel. Then the container the gel was supposedly kept in turned out to be perfume bottle with a diffuser , yeah, cos gels really work well through a perfume bottles' atomiser don't they? How many more changes and contradictions are we expected to swallow about this whole affair?

    [​IMG]
     
  15. hc25036

    hc25036 pfm Member

    Gullible and then some? Clearly we’ve never met...
     
  16. thebiglebowski

    thebiglebowski pfm Member

    Oops looks like some more Russian tourists merely trying to find the famous Toblerone factory in Switzerland were falsely arrested for spying after attempting to break into a chemical weapons lab with hacking equipment, pure coincidence it was the one co-testing the Salisbury sample.
     
  17. Minio

    Minio pfm Member

    There must be a secret department in the Kremlin that dreams up these cunning schemes.

    Airliner coming down in "dissident" country, Putin denying all knowledge. Any more for any more?
     
  18. matthewr

    matthewr spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld

    While stressing I am not a member of the GRU i do note that i frequently buy and indeed wear Ladies perfumes. I don't expect a couple of brutish looking Russian victims of the patriarchy to understand this but i would like to think your typical pfmer would be more enlightened.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018
  19. andrew d

    andrew d pfm Member

  20. gintonic

    gintonic 50 shades of grey pussy cats

    and why is humour important to you when someone has died and others made seriously ill?

    there is something seriously wrong with you if you think it needs an injection of humour.
     
    lordsummit and doctorf like this.

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