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Who's Heard the Dutch & Dutch Speakers

Discussion in 'audio' started by zekezebra, Nov 27, 2018.

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  1. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    I I presume that when Lee demonstrated the 8Cs to you he acoustically measured your room, and treated any room mode bass peaks with the 8Cs inbuilt filters, many listeners have never heard bass with no overhang, no ‘boom’.
    Keith
     
  2. Strictly Stereo

    Strictly Stereo Trade: Strictly Stereo

    They actually run deeper than most subwoofers. Still Dutch & Dutch makes it easy to attach subwoofers to the speakers and there are certainly other benefits to having additional sources of bass, chiefly that it helps to even out the low end room response. They use an otherwise spare DAC channel to provide a balanced analogue subwoofer output.
     
    camverton likes this.
  3. camverton

    camverton pfm Member

    Yes, Lee did a great job. When I tune the bass of my own system I pay particular attention to the waterfall plot. It may be true that some, maybe many, listeners have not heard bass properly set up. I’ve been doing it for years in my own systems, starting with using Meridian Room Correction and looking at Bob Stuart’s thoughts on the subject, through various AVR solution, mostly not very impressive, and JR with REW through to miniDSP in combination with Dirac. I stand by my measurements and listening of D&D, and listening to Kiis that they measure low and are impressive but not IME and IMHO fully convincing.
     
  4. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    Can you post the MDAT file of your room?
    Keith
     
  5. camverton

    camverton pfm Member

    Here we go again. You really are becoming rather tiresome.

    For reasons I clearly stated in another recent thread (or maybe this one, can’t be bothered to check!), No.

    Have you provided the essential info to enable us to interpret the plot you posted the other day? If not why not?
     
  6. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    I just thought you might like to share your expertise, as you have been doing it for many year and I presume you find your system ‘fully convincing’.
    Keith
     
    jamington2004 likes this.
  7. AndyU

    AndyU pfm Member

    Ever thought of selling double glazing?
     
  8. camverton

    camverton pfm Member

    That would be very useful as I have a couple of windows in need of attention! Just think of all the measurements that could be taken...
     
    AndyU likes this.
  9. AndyU

    AndyU pfm Member

    They would be windows that you could put anywhere in any room and get the same view.
     
    camverton likes this.
  10. camverton

    camverton pfm Member

    That did make me laugh, that did!
     
    AndyU likes this.
  11. mondie

    mondie pfm Member

    That's what happens when you push 20hz out of a small cone. It is easy to do with active and measures ok but doesn't sound full-bodied. There is no beating basic physics. You need large cones for low frequencies no matter the onboard eq trickery.
     
  12. firedog

    firedog pfm Member

    Not really. Neither D&D nor Kii claim their speakers sound like those with 15 inch woofers - you don't get the "physical" bass that you do with such speakers moving lots of air. But low frequencies - they are definitely there and more than enough for most people in most rooms. In my setup the Kiis measure down to 20hz without any significant rolloff. In a small or medium sized room these kind of speakers are probably superior because of the overall clarity of the sound....I don't feel anything is missing. No lack of "fullness".

    That's unless you just have to have that feeling that your chest and stomach are being pressed on. But that's very difficult and expensive to do in a not large room without negatively effecting other aspects of the sound.
     
    SteveH likes this.
  13. Andrew C!

    Andrew C! Been around a while....

    My room has three specific nodes in the bass region that I used to struggle to resolve without eq. The MiniDSP/8c combo works very nicely - far more so than quite a few Naim/different speaker combos I tried. I don't find The MiniDSP/8c combo dry or sterile in any way, tho.

    Each to their own. I'll try a sub with the system sometime, to experience the difference. I'll also try the D&D breakout box, as and when that ever appears...
     
  14. Space is the Place

    Space is the Place pfm Member

    It interesting i think perhaps the Kii's sound less full-bodied than a normal speaker because they aren't exciting the room in the same way, we've got used to hearing a speaker "drive the room" we hear that and think its normal. I've heard the Kii's briefly (and a Demo of the big B&O's) and they sound like my own speakers quite a lot. Also heard the *c's a couple off times too, on a brief listen i felt they where fairly natural although the hotel room could have done with a few absorption panels as they were placed close to the back wall.

    I think in my experience perhaps where smaller drivers aren't as convincing is producing a realistic timbre of amplified bass guitar played at a realistic volume, 15 inch drivers seem more convincing to me here.

    The Kii's were one of the reason of the reasons i sold my JBL's (a regrettable decision in hindsight!).
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  15. mondie

    mondie pfm Member

    You have taken my quote out of context, I was responding to what Camverton heard which concurs with what you have just said. Of course they don't claim the Kiis sound like 15" drivers, why would they but then they do talk about flat bass to 20hz. The joys of measurements that only tell a fraction of the story.
     
  16. poco a poco

    poco a poco pfm Member

    I have no wish to get involved in the ongoing argument here over room measurements as I have very little experience in that area, except for a sound level meter. I did make some posts much earlier in this thread and was at the time interested in a home audition, but was unable to do so then due to some health issues.

    I have now purchased a pair of Dutch & Dutch 8c's after an extended home audition of Keith's (Purite Audio's) demonstration pair and after owning my previous Meridian M10's for 35 years. It was a particularly difficult (theoretical at least) decision for me as my prime source is analogue and I was very wary of having a digital conversion taking place in my analogue chain. Would this conversion be totally transparent with the 8c's? Well in practice it's impossible to be certain really without having an identical pair of speakers without the digital conversion, but then they wouldn't be identical. All I can say is that these speakers are giving me the best sound I have had at home with both CD and LP input when fed via my Burmester 808 pre amp into the analogue inputs of the 8c's. So the 8c's are not even used in full digital mode, my MF KW25, DM25 CD player also going via my pre amp and yet CD probably shows the bigger improvement.

    The ability of these speakers to remove a lot of what the room does to the sound is certainly convincing and it is only when you experience it in your own room that it becomes clear. My room is relatively small, and has always sounded reasonable to me even with my Active Meridian M10's that go quite low in the Bass, but the 8c's showed further gains can be made. Here is is what I noted down after having the demonstration pair at home for just over a week and deciding to buy a pair.

    "......moving the Meridian M10's from their (the 8c's) proximity and moving them back and outwards from the M10 positions. After playing around with setup (I reset the wall distances in the app) a bit and having had quite a variety of music on them now I'm convinced they are the way to go. They are not perfect, no speaker is, and there is still a lot I love about my M10's, but when I swapped them back it was clear to me that a lot of what was going on in the Bass while not unattractive, was a colouration due to the room modes. The 8c's strip this away letting you know more of what is going on in the recording. Not always attractive, but it just sounds and feels 'right' to me. What really impresses me is the delicacy of low level sounds, inflections in vocals etc. Much more information of microphone placement etc. A friend came last night with a few of his LP's & CD's, a Audio Note 300B valve user. He was really impressed with the detail and dynamics, although I had to turn them down quite a bit for him from my usual volume (for him - I like to listen at fairly high, but not ridicules levels). He also particularly loved all the extra information in vocals. He said though while he liked them he felt he could not live long term with all that extra information. Horses for Courses."

    So they will not be for everyone as is the case with everything HiFi, but for me at this time and given the size limitations of my room the best I have heard.

    I want to note, as I know Keith takes some 'stick' here, that his customer service is excellent, absolutely no hard sell, infact after measuring my M10's in my room he was was not convinced I needed to change them. I had his demo pair of 8c's at home for over a week to audition with no pressure to make a decision. His had a willingness to answer a lot of (sometimes silly) questions by me both quickly and politely by both PM and phone. He also allowed me to keep the demo pair of 8c's until my pair arrived from D&D (with the latest firmware) and he set this new pair up again earlier this week in my preferred slightly revised positions, spending most part of a day here. He also gave me a generous part exchange on on my 35 year old (owned from new by me) Meridian M10's.

    So "double glazing" type of salesman, from my personal experience absolutely not.
     
    Weekender, jamjar784, Emlin and 6 others like this.
  17. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Meridian were so ahead of the curve both in analogue then dsp active speakers. It’s a remarkable testament that you’re only now standing down your M10s after 35 years of service and for a great piece of contemporary engineering in the D&Ds.
     
    poco a poco likes this.
  18. poco a poco

    poco a poco pfm Member

    Of course I certainly agree with that. When I first heard Active loudspeakers 40 years ago I was convinced then that they were a real step up in the right direction. I bought a pair of Meridian M1's and had these for quite a few years before changing to the M10's. Meridian then were even willing to customise my pair with a few changes I suggested (better tweeter mounting plates and XLR inputs, rather than RCA and Din). I have heard a (very) few IMO 'better' speakers over the years, but until now nothing that would convince me to change as either:
    1. The were way outside my budget.
    2. There was no way they would fit let alone work in any rooms I have had.
    3. Both 2 & 3.

    I certainly see the relatively new engineering expertise that now delivers the ability to deal reasonably effectively with the contribution of the typical domestic room is an important way forward.

    I may still miss the M10's after having them all this time, but Keith has promised to let me have the occasional nostalgic listen as he is keeping my pair as he also owned a pair 20 years ago and regretted selling them. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
    TheDecameron likes this.
  19. poco a poco

    poco a poco pfm Member

    One thing I should add is that for the last few years I had two Gik Monster Bass Traps with added diffuser plates across the corners of the room behind my Merdian M10's. The effectiveness of these was not measured at time I got them, but when Keith measured my M10's they were in place. To my ears they had helped to 'smooth out' the Bass a little more between about 60 and 200Hz. Not required with the 8c's and in fact detrimental in that position at least. Big bonus as SWMBO hated them, so brownie points gained with a swop to the 8c's. :) I'll be putting them in the classifieds soon.
     
  20. AndyU

    AndyU pfm Member

    About a week ago I heard Herbie Hancock live in concert playing with the extraordinary bass player James Genus. Day after John McGlaughlin with Etienne Mbappé, a wonderfully lyrical bass player. Last night I was at a Dave Holland concert, without doubt one of the greatest acoustic bass players alive. Just on my way in to a Beatrice Rana concert, don’t know what piano she’ll be playing but it’ll likely be a Fazioli or a Steinway. Tomorrow I’ll be at an orchestral concert - Strauss, Mozart Symphony 41 and Beethoven 6. I just love it when people suggest that those of us who fail to be enamoured of these overhyped speakers somehow don’t know what real music or real bass sounds like.
     
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