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Why so many lies.

Discussion in 'off topic' started by I.D.C., Mar 28, 2020.

  1. Finnegan

    Finnegan pfm Member

    Perhaps, but I think the point is the level of cynicism that accompanies the lying now. They know that we know that they're lying but persist anyway. Johnson has lied shamelessly throughout his career. He even got sacked from The Times for blatant fabrication. Who really believed that the NHS would receive £350 million a week post-Brexit? After weeks of dithering and disregarding expert advice (the sorts of experts Michael Gove told us we were fed up of), he now claims to be 'leading the world' in the fight to contain it. When, in fact, he is a figure of ridicule around the globe. Trump frequently contradicts himself in the course of a sentence. It's all part of the sustained attack on truth we've witnessed over the last few years. A 'post-truth,' 'alternative facts' agenda, and it's extremely dangerous.
     
  2. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    I don’t disagree with any of that but still contend that Politicians have always lied, it does appear more blatant now but we are better equipped & informed to know they are lying. The public just lap it up though, it’s almost as if they don’t care? Trump is a terrible person on every level, his campaign was upfront with that & yet...
     
    Darren likes this.
  3. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    Sure, but between “Everything once was perfect” and “‘‘twas ever thus” there’s quite a lot of room. It’s very difficult to imagine some of the recent lies (“We didn’t get the email”, “We can’t release the death figures because we need families’ permission”, “Herd immunity was never the strategy”) - lies which can be disproven simply by remembering what was said a day or two previously - even from Cameron’s government. Totally predictable though from a government which claimed e.g. that Labour was responsible for the rise in rough sleeping over the last 10 years.

    Important to realise what we’re dealing with here. It’s new and it’s dangerous, and I think it’s irresponsible to just shrug and say Oh well, what can you do.

    As for blaming the public for lapping it up: they’re reliant on the media. We can blame the public once the media start doing their job.
     
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr and I.D.C. like this.
  4. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    It’s not a shrug more a sense of perspective, I kind of expect to be disappointed by politicians. I don’t see the public as empty vessels to filled by media construct but I do think ‘we’ are complicit in that we don’t want to face the truth. Exhibit ‘a’ would be May’s disastrous election campaign where she was probably more honest than the oppositions fantasy list, the media latched onto the dementia tax but in reality people have been losing their homes to the care system for years. This is not an endorsement of May who I think was probably the most incompetent PM in living memory.

    I agree that the lies are blatant but you only have to put the likes of Trump in front of a camera for the untruths to tumble out. Actual sentient beings voted for him, unbelievable really. It is probably harder to cover things up now so lie piles atop lie. I despair as I don’t see an end in sight.
     
  5. Roger Adams

    Roger Adams pfm Member

    It strikes me to be an ocean of sanity and honesty compared with the Trump daily briefings you can watch live on CNN at 8 or 9pm :) Those are essential viewing. Honestly.
     
  6. Stemcor

    Stemcor I should be listening to music

    Some things to take into consideration.

    1. A politician who “reaches the top” inevitably has had to walk over a few people to obtain their success. Treating the general population like dirt is the next step.

    2. Very few politicians have ever had a “proper job”. The career route for a bin man to Westminster is not promising.

    3. Accountability. Let’s be honest here - there isn’t any. PM question time is a joke. 30 minutes for scrutiny. Listen to the answers given - they bear no relation to the question. If this was an a level paper, our politicians would fail miserably.

    4. More accountability. Listen to the PM and the rest of the government dodge the questions posed by journalists. It’s very rare for a journalist to press home the question so a bit of bull and “next question please”.

    5. The public. We are all sick and tired of the behaviour but no alternatives have emerged. We all say “it’s just the way they are” then vote for more of the same.

    6. Businesses. They allegedly fund lobby groups to protect their own interests.

    No wonder we are in such as mess.
     
    chartz, Snufkin and Dozey like this.
  7. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

  8. I.D.C.

    I.D.C. pfm Member

    There is a difference between telling lies and plain old stupid bullshit. Tory first part / Trup last part.
     
    chartz, Dozey and Covkxw like this.
  9. Roger Adams

    Roger Adams pfm Member

    They are indeed Different I.D.C. Anyone thinking that Trump and his advisors are that filled with stupid BS however, forget the levels of intelligence required to turn 63 million Americans into followers of your mantra and turn that into a religion.
     
    I.D.C. likes this.
  10. Nero

    Nero BLACK BLACK BLACK BLACK BLACK

    I think two things are different now. Firstly, we have a competitive 24/7 news culture, so each journo is looking for the best story, faster. That's why Kuensberg et al. vomit anything that No10 throw at them, before taking time to research the veracity or otherwise.
    Secondly, most politicians have adopted the Putin model, which means spouting two sides of the same story, to confuse. The result is that after a while, you can't remember who said what, even if it was complete tosh. Trump is also very good at this.
     
    Alex S, I.D.C. and Roger Adams like this.
  11. Nick_G

    Nick_G pfm Member

    Is this a glimpse into the radicalised fanaticism of the Brexit jihadists? It suggests that the government put Brexit above saving lives, which would be criminally insane.

    Does it make Tory voters proud?
     
    I.D.C. and Roger Adams like this.
  12. h.g.

    h.g. pfm Member

    The general population has become increasingly indifferent to what is true and so politicians are increasingly exploiting it to their advantage. This is not really a failing of politicians who by the nature of the job and the nature of those attracted to it tend to do what is required/effective to get what they want. It is primarily a failure of our society to maintain levels of education in the general population.

    This site is of course a prime example given the home audio sector was way ahead of the curve in the 70s when it abandoned what was true and replaced it with a set of marketed lies that enabled the successful selling of hardware with a poor technical performance for the price. This can only be accepted by the uneducated and so the educated were largely driven out of the hobby as shown by the swift disappearance of technical or educational articles and publications in the sector.

    This process of reducing respect for knowledge and what is true backed by marketing started in unimportant areas like luxury goods (e.g. hifi, handbags,...) but increasingly moved into more important areas like running large institutions, businesses, finance and politics. It has now gone beyond the tipping point in countries like the UK with the majority of the population clearly now largely indifferent to understanding reality and willing to accept whatever is marketed at them. For example, the current signs are that the truth about something as serious as the large scale unnecessary killing of a significant proportion of the UK population is not being understood by the majority of the population. This may of course change in the future as more people die but there are no signs the politically disengaged bulk of the general population are wanting those responsible to be held to account. Quite the opposite, the proportion of the population that think the government is handling the pandemic well is growing.

    What has caused such a large part of the UK population to stop valuing knowledge and what is true? I am not wholly sure but one or two things seem relevant. There has increasingly been no significant adverse consequences to believing lies. An audiophile paying £1k for a cable still has a cable that (usually) works as well as normal £1-10 cable and if they can afford to spend £1k on a cable then they can afford lose £1k without harm. Clearly this isn't the same with things like herd immunity where their will be serious adverse consequences. Another is that acquiring knowledge and independent thought requires significant effort unlike absorbing marketing by letting it passively wash over you.
     
    stevec67, Shadders and droodzilla like this.
  13. Roger Adams

    Roger Adams pfm Member

    They are just blind and have been for four years. Not one is prepared to listen to a single piece of reason. Not one is prepared to accept that anyone was dishonest during the campaign. All this in light of the continued exposure of the campaign and its main figures.

    For me, it's simply a psychological reaction that seeks to maintain a belief by attacking both logic and reason. Less of reaction. More of a condition. Sadly it appears to be a condition that has become remarkably common very quickly. I put that down to the echo chamber that is the chosen media - the variety of and access to which has escalated since the start of the century quicker than Coronavirus.
     
  14. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    I really think we need to stop saying “politicians” when what we mean is “the Conservative Party”. One of the reasons that many people have simply given up on politics, and on the media and all forms of public knowledge and debate, is that every awful deception foisted on them by the Conservative Party has been attributed to the political class in general (often by liberal journalists). The number of times I’ve heard people say “But they all lie, don’t they!” Well, up to a point maybe, but really, no.
     
    najb, Snufkin and Sue Pertwee-Tyr like this.
  15. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr Staying alert

    There are times when politicians have to lie or dissemble: when national security or lives might be at stake, or when a badly-timed truth will spook the markets, for example. But the current Tory stance seems to be that, because lying is sanctioned in some cases, it is acceptable in all cases. It’s an extreme case of the ends justifying the means: we’ve been elected, so whatever we need to say to get done what we want to do, is fine.

    Well it isn’t. I’m not so despondent that I’ve lost all hope of a reckoning in due course, but I’m not hopeful it will be any time soon, alas.
     
  16. Roger Adams

    Roger Adams pfm Member

    I'd say that yes they do all lie - with differing purposes in mind though. One side want to get into power to favour one group in our society, the others to favour another group.It's daft to think anyone could win an election offering up the truth.

    There is absolutely no doubt as to who the Conservatives have always sought to favour. Labour need to lie to appeal to enough of those people, on some issues, in order to win enough votes. Then they can break the promises to those and to fervently pursue social equalisation for three years or so.

    The real issue is that we are a nation of remarkably selfish people focussed on little in life other than material gains for them and theirs. The human condition is that of the hunter/gatherer mentality isn't it? Maybe someone well versed in the subject could clarify that.
     
  17. tiggers

    tiggers pfm Member

    The notion of journalists holding politicians to account is genuinely laughable in a post Leveson world. It's hard to pick which group are the most self serving and corrupt, but neither are worth the time of day any longer.
     
  18. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    You see how easy it is to move from "The Conservative Party have rebuilt their campaigning and governance strategies around disinformation " to "All politicians lie" to "We're a horrible nation" to "Humans are just scum, really, aren't we?"

    You might be right about all of that, I just think we should be prepared to dwell on the immediate problem a bit longer than many seem prepared to. Even in the UK, even the Conservative Party did not do the things they do now as recently as a couple of years ago, so I don't really think the hunter-gather mentality explains it.
     
  19. Roger Adams

    Roger Adams pfm Member

    For me it comes to this. Yes they all are dishonest about what they will achieve, at least they have been in througout my life time. For the current lot, much of what they appear to have done seems to make the wealthier and middle classes feel better about life.

    The policies have also proven enough for the aspirational hunter gatherers in the working class, who see themselves moving up the ladder far enough, to join them. Remove their perceived social/financial barriers and you have their votes. Brexit is an example where the aspirational working class were made to believe that all of their issues were down to immigration/freedom of movement. They will be let down. Years later though. The liars, con men, have done well.

    I get the impression that there is a much larger grouping of the aspirational working class than there once was. In many ways that's great. If they spend their lives feeling depressed however, because they are left disappointed by their representatives and the perceived lack of progress, then I would argue it's actually harmful to the quality of life of the afflicted.
     
  20. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK Waiting for the streetcar..

    As it stands, you're right. However, that's because we don't have any up-to-date evidence of Labour being in a similar position to the Conservative party, to make any meaningful comparisons on behaviour in power. What Labour (or its supporters) say about how it would conduct things and how it actually conducts things will be different.
     

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